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 For conversation sake

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Eddard Stark
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PostSubject: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:23 pm

Poison and I were talking last week about how many teams/players end up quitting in your tournaments. It's all too familiar.

But I was talking to Poison and Blood today, and imagine if SWBF2 (or SWBF3) tournaments involved salaries. A general salary cap would be created for each team. Let's be conservative and say the total was $500. There would also be bonuses if your team won the tournament as incentives to try and win. This way teams/players don't quit because you could make it so that quitting would waive your salary and any bonuses.

Not only would this improve the participation of the season and tournament, the signings, contracts, trades, and waivers list would be more exciting. You could have trade and waiver deadlines. The twitter posts would be more viewed for updates for team and player news. It would be just like a sports franchise and organization. You could have as many players as you wanted but you couldn't go over the salary cap space.

With all that said:

How would you value your players and the units?
Would you say that regardless of the unit type, the best player gets the most money?
Who in the community would have the highest salary and why?
Which team would have the worst payroll problems?
Or maybe the it's the rarity?

Poison pointed out that the sniper should get the most money because there are few good snipers. Blood said that the grunt should be paid the most. However, I would say that the engineers should get the most money because they do the most damage in matches. It's a pretty big topic.

What do you think? Besides the obvious sponsor issues, is there a flaw to this type of league?

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:30 pm

Eddard Stark wrote:
Poison and I were talking last week about how many teams/players end up quitting in your tournaments. It's all too familiar.

But I was talking to Poison and Blood today, and imagine if SWBF2 (or SWBF3) tournaments involved salaries. A general salary cap would be created for each team. Let's be conservative and say the total was $500. There would also be bonuses if your team won the tournament as incentives to try and win. This way teams/players don't quit because you could make it so that quitting would waive your salary and any bonuses.

Not only would this improve the participation of the season and tournament, the signings, contracts, trades, and waivers list would be more exciting. You could have trade and waiver deadlines. The twitter posts would be more viewed for updates for team and player news. It would be just like a sports franchise and organization. You could have as many players as you wanted but you couldn't go over the salary cap space.

With all that said:

How would you value your players and the units?
Would you say that regardless of the unit type, the best player gets the most money?
Who in the community would have the highest salary and why?
Which team would have the worst payroll problems?
Or maybe the it's the rarity?

Poison pointed out that the sniper should get the most money because there are few good snipers. Blood said that the grunt should be paid the most. However, I would say that the engineers should get the most money because they do the most damage in matches. It's a pretty big topic.

What do you think? Besides the obvious sponsor issues, is there a flaw to this type of league?

On NHL 14, the VGHL was basically this. It had the NHL, AHL, and ECHL. Anyone was eligible for ECHL, they were drafted, no salary caps. AHL teams would bid on players from the ECHL, with a salary cap, so you had to spend your cap space wisely. NHL salaries would be based on stats from the previous season if you were in the NHL the previous season (if you were called up from the AHL to your NHL parent team, you maintained your AHL salary cap hit). Everyone was on a 1 year contract. So we can determine salaries based on bidding or stats.

They also had waivers and trades, and people who refused to report to their team would get benched for the season. Every player was required to play at least once every 4 games. Violating any rules resulted in a penalty in the form of dead cap space for the season.

I think you would pay the player based on how good he is, not where he plays. In the VGHL, a player was listed at a certain position, but could theoretically play anywhere.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:31 pm

It depends quite honestly. In this hypothetical situation you are purposing that the game is a spectator e-sport akin to League of Legends or Counterstrike.

If we are pursuing the thought in this mindset then the proper function would be a flat base amount given to all players equally. Pay would not be based on performance but based on personalities. If the sniper is known as the king of all snipers then obviously he would be making the most money through sponsorships to the team and would be payed accordingly. This applies to any member on the team. Their bonuses would be applied based on their popularity. So obviously the "legends" of our community would be the biggest money makers. Even if they aren't the "best" really they are simply known for better or worse and bring the most attention.

Players fitting this category would be older players like Nighthawk, LoseGunZ, Stratto, etc. These players weren't necesarily the best ever but they each had unique personalities. Stratto would be paid lots simply because of his joking personality and creativity in situations. LoseGunz would be paid because of his plays he makes and the moments where he pulls off the impossible. NightHawk would be paid because of his ego and attitude that can be polarizing. These are 3 examples of players that would stick out from the rest and receive bonuses on top of their base salary.

Otherwise I wouldn't say it would be paid based on performance, I think the team would share in that and let the bonuses be applied like stated above.


As also stated this would invest players into the game and have an investment in their play time and skills improving. There wouldn't be people just leaving because they got bored or couldn't make the time. If the money was enough to suffificiently supplement income in any way to schedule around the tournament then there wouldn't be any abandonment issues.

Obviously this whole situation is hypothetical and nowhere near reality. It would require legitimate team organizations, sponsors and a official league/tournament staff that governs the games. It would also require a substantial amount of money to disrupt the daily lives of the average worker and be sufficient in providing an affordable living while focusing on the game.

If you are talking more in terms of say, show up once a week for a tournament for x amount of money which is a relatively small amount. Then well, yes I would pay my star player more so he shows up and wins the match for us while others can be replaced with ease. However I like exploring the more professional hypothetical situation mirroring that of legitimate e-sports.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:14 pm

So would the type of unit actually matter in terms of salary? Or is it, as you suggested, only about personalities?

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:17 pm

Unit wouldn't matter unless the player was extraordinarily good on it. A highly skilled player specializing in a certain class would bring lots of attention. If someone was know as the god of snipers, he would be a popular part of the team and paid accordingly. So in a way unit matters only if the player is one of the best at it and brought fame/exposure to their team because of it. I would also argue for pay based on demand of said player. Obviously such a player would be in high demand because of such potential fame/exposure and people would desire to acquire such a player. The team would need to pay the player accordingly to dissuade switching teams in the off season for more pay. This also of course rings true for their performance and what they bring to the team, which contradicts part of my earlier statements. Teams will offer more for a star player who can make the plays. So in the end a combination of popularity, personality and skill would contribute to the bonuses. The base pay should still be equal.
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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:40 pm

Quote :
I think you would pay the player based on how good he is, not where he plays.

Quote :
This also of course rings true for their performance and what they bring to the team, which contradicts part of my earlier statements. Teams will offer more for a star player who can make the plays. So in the end a combination of popularity, personality and skill would contribute to the bonuses. The base pay should still be equal.

Right. If you're a professional athlete, they pay you based on how good you are. If you score 100 points in the NHL or hit 50 homeruns. The position doesn't matter. You're doing incredible and should be paid as such. However, what if there is no allstar on the team? What if it's a perfectly balanced team except for one unit type and you need to pay a little extra in ensure that you get that missing piece? What if you don't have a good sniper and another team has one that is requesting more money? I just think that it's not a simple equation. I think it's no different than any other GM situation.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:50 pm

I would say if your team is missing that "piece" then they obviously yes should expect to shell out on one who is requesting more money. The other possibility is taking the chance on an upcoming player and groom them into an all star. There will be lots of roster swaps in off seasons based on this ideal. Which is a common thing without long contract end dates and strict poaching rules. This however is a whole other can of worms and it of course comparible with many sports. I think its most comparible with something like League of Legends or Counterstrike. The behaviours I have described are based off those e-sports scenes which would be the best basis for this discussion. Comparing to sports itself isn't realistic due to the environment being vastly different.
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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:55 pm

It's still cool to think about though.

If you guys were to get out of the gate early on Twitch/Youtube with SWBF3, you could get something going.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:56 pm

I think ultimately, the Engy is the QB. I'm going to pay Kratos or Destroyer more than i'm going to pay Shotty or Scarz plain and simple lol. Supply and demand comes into play too of course, as some one mentioned there are not very many good snipers. I'm sure that would bump up a great snipers pay a good amount.

A top grunt wouldn't be paid as much as some engies. Hell, certain gods like RH for example would probably be the highest paid. It would also depend on the team and their situation on who got paid what as well. I could see alot of different things happening as alot would come into play such as personalitys like ICM said or skill, performance, whatever. I also see a shit ton of exceptions to the rule but, i think if you want to simplify it


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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:58 pm

Well, this is partially a legitimate discussion. Based on what I've heard EA may be pushing an E-Sports scene with this game. This is hearsay at the moment of course but rumours say a certain older player has a friend who was hired as EA's lead esports guy or something like that. However the rumour is already like a year old and I'm not sure if it still rings true today, I trust the source however!
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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:36 pm

If Battlefield is any indication, real organized by EA eSports will not take off. The big issue will be whether Rent-A-Server will be available day one or whether it will take months to come like it did with BF4.

Without Rent-A-Server any type of competition is effectively impossible.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:37 pm

The main reasons eSports for these games will never get huge is because they release a game ever year or every few years. It's not like CS, LoL, Dota etc which have that consistency of being the same game with just patch updates for years and years.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:20 pm

E-sports for Halo has been around for around 13 years and they've released 6 games over that period. CoD is tough because of the yearly release, but they seem to have a good thing going in their scene. Battlefield never took off because the game was so vehicle centered even in TDM through BF3. Then they had the server fiasco in BF4 that quickly ended any chance of that game being competitive.
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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:25 pm

Yea I was gonna say that's definitely not the case for CoD, they release a game every 3 weeks lol But its competitive scene is bigger then ever.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:55 pm

Because Activision uses the COD eSports scene as advertising. Nothing about it is real. It's all manufactured.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:19 pm

Would Delta or Kratos be the highest paid player in the league?

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:38 pm

Eddard Stark wrote:
Would Delta or Kratos be the highest paid player in the league?

delta gets RAFs... so he wins..... i think................

and scarz would get paid the most for being the worst Klappa

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:44 pm

Yeah COD esports is non existant. Its 100% activision driven for game sales. Battlefield Esport were ruined as stated about. There's no driving force behind the game ever being added. The only really sustainable esports scenes atm are Countertrike, Dota, LoL, etc which are growing in size due to sponsors and organizations.

Yes it would be hard for this to happen for battlefront, It would honeslty need to be designed with this in mind. Then supported. If they plan to make it a continuing series every year or two then obviously nothing will be sustainable. However I think It can be done if supported over the years akin to say Destiny's philosophy on constant updates (to a good base game though pls, destiny failed.)
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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:13 pm

Who gets paid more: Poison or Stern?

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:15 pm

Fusion
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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:21 pm

IceCreamMan wrote:
Fusion

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:21 pm

Stern because he actually plays.
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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:22 pm

Fuck Fusion.

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:42 pm

Kratos wrote:
and scarz would get paid the most for being the worst Klappa

the worst at being bad CarriedTodayBig

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PostSubject: Re: For conversation sake   Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:14 am

Kratos would deserve more money but they would probably be payed about the same. The league is lacking in true high quality engineers so anyone worth a damn would be grabbed up and paid in full. Delta, right now, is the clear second best engy in the whole league so its possible depending on teams and how things would play out that he would be the highest paid player in the league. If were just talking about pure worth Kratos is worth more than anyone.





Stern or Poison? I'd have to go with Stern on this one. Stern is coming off two consecutive championships and is apart of a very small sniper pool. Poison on the other hand, has the raw talent and potential to be paid more than Stern but, I'd think people would be more inclined to shell out the money for someone that has alot of winning on his resume recently.




I'd give Scarz the league minimum.
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